From Burnout to Balance: Embodied Leadership in Engineering

[00:07:06] Welcome and Introduction to Tech Leaders Livestream

Andrew Murphy: Welcome to Tech Leaders Livestream. I'm Andrew Murphy. I'm a tech leadership trainer and coach at Tech Leaders Launchpad, and this is Tech Leaders Livestream. I started this because when I became a tech leader 15 years ago, there weren't a lot of resources out there for people like me, people who are new to leadership. There weren't the books, they weren't the websites, and they definitely weren't the live streams that exist today. And so I started Tech Leaders Launchpad, the company and Tech Leaders Livestream to help people who were in the same situation I was 15 years ago. I want to help you become a better leader. I want to help you learn the things that myself and the people that I share with you learned the hard way through making a lot of mistakes. And it's not good to make a lot of mistakes as a leader because we're making mistakes on other people. Code doesn't care if you fail a test a hundred times. Humans care if you experiment on them 100 times. And so part of what I'm trying to do here is share my coaches, my mentors, the people that I learn from, with you to help you learn and get better.

So with me today, we've got Dan Prager. Dan is with me to talk about embodied leadership and specifically how that applies to things such as burnout and dealing with the challenges that we have in our industry. Dan, you've been on here before, but do you want to refresh people's memory and let them know who you are?

[00:08:37] Dan Prager's Introduction and Martial Arts Background

Dan Prager: Sure. Thanks for having me back, Andrew. It's good to be back. So yeah, my background is in software development and leadership. Nowadays I work for Everest Engineering, heading up coaching and learning capability. I think relevant today, I've got a strong side interest dating back decades in learning and teaching martial arts, which is a very embodied discipline. For those who want specifics, Japanese jiu jitsu, judo, and kung fu are the main ones that I studied. But for the purposes of today, I like to do things with my mind and body, and I've found that in coaching and facilitating and giving talks, when I brought some of that physicality and embodiment from martial arts, it kind of helped, but I never really meshed them together. I'm a bit further along nowadays and suggested to Andrew it might be a good topic to talk about and see if it resonates with his audience.

[00:09:49] Setting the Scene for the Conversation

Andrew Murphy: Yeah, I think it's a really fun thing to talk about and not something a lot of people talk about. And you know, we are, despite the weather today in Melbourne, we are slowly getting towards Christmas. As we all wind down for the year, as we all spend some time reflecting on what's come before us and what we've got to do in the coming months and the period after the break, I thought it would be a great topic to finish the year off and, in some ways, have a bit of a chill chat—just the two of us—rather than the more structured conversation with a panel. We can just have a talk about this topic. Please, audience, share your questions, comments, and suggestions in the chat and we'll talk about them as well. I don't want us to talk at you for 60 minutes—I want you to be part of the dialogue. The best way to do that is to talk to us. Dan and I will be discussing your comments as well as the general topic of embodied leadership. Shall we start off then with what is embodied leadership?

[00:11:08] What is Embodied Leadership?

Dan Prager: Yeah, I guess we could break it down into: What is embodiment, and how might it be relevant to leadership? We're all embodied beings; we're not just heads on sticks. The body is more than a brain taxi for most of us. Some of you might like to be uploaded to the cloud, but that ain't happening just yet. So embodiment is physical experience. We have physical feelings—they tie in with our cognitive thoughts. Some people talk about mind, heart, gut: we associate gut with intuition and heart with emotions. As leaders, we're more than just cognitive creatures. People pay attention to how we hold ourselves, how we relate, how we communicate, and we also feel internally, both physically and emotionally, for what happens around us. So I'd say embodied leadership is paying attention to the body as well as the mind in our practice of leadership—as a very broad entree to the area.

Andrew Murphy: Yeah, I think it can be so easy to forget that sometimes. Especially in our jobs where a lot of what we're doing is cognitive work and we get lost in our thoughts. Part of what we seek as knowledge workers is this idea of flow—disconnecting from the world around you, including sometimes your physical self. That's kind of seen as this ultimate goal, especially for software developers. Get into flow state and forget about everything else. But you can't do that because you are still a biological being; you still have a physicality to you.

[00:13:14] Flow State and Embodiment in Work and Life

Dan Prager: Yeah, it's super interesting bringing up flow. Sometimes people talk about it in sports contexts as being "in the zone"—and of course, sports are embodied, walking in nature is embodied. If people want, put in the chat where they go to have those kinds of flow experiences outside of coding or that cognitive experience—that'd be interesting. I love spending time walking in nature, or looking out by the sea or up in the mountains. These are very embodied experiences which connect with flow. At the same time, being a developer (and still coding for fun), I get that flow, too.

The flip side: Ron Jeffries, one of the "parents" of Extreme Programming, talked in a recent interview about what happens when he's coding and it's not working—he starts getting a headache, tension, pain. He said if he listens to his body, he'd just stop, but his lesson has been to ignore those signals and push through the pain. I think that's probably not the best strategy. When I get that kind of reaction, I think maybe it's time to have a break, go for a walk, and let intuition and creative thinking kick in. At that moment, I'm metaphorically belting my head against a brick wall.

Andrew Murphy: Yeah, I'm exactly the same. I know I can't solve some problems without walking away from my computer screen. I have to go for a walk. What's interesting with me is I have to be listening to something on those walks—podcasts I kind of like but don't care much about. Otherwise, I can't focus my brain. I go out, do a thinking walk for 20-30 minutes, and inevitably, solve the problem.

[00:16:01] Creativity, Breaks, and Personal Differences in Working Styles

Dan Prager: There's probably research out there, but I'm more into my own experiential research. A lot of the most creative ideas come while walking, or in the shower—those intuitive leaps. It's interesting, especially now, even back in the before times, open plan offices—some people have music on while they're coding and writing. I could never do that—I'd be away with the fairies. But it's another thing—some people just push away irrelevant background noise. Designers working in workshops will often have music to stimulate creativity. There's diversity in how people function best, and it's cool that you've further evolved the going-for-a-walk idea to include having music or podcasts as background for creative or unblocking processes.

[00:17:27] Pushing Through vs. Listening to Your Body

Andrew Murphy: It's something I've been really conscious of because I used to do what Ron Jeffries did—just trying to push through it. It just wasn't working for me.

Let's get back to the topic of embodiment and embodied leadership. What viewers won’t know is that you and I actually did an embodied coaching session. In preparation for this livestream, Dan said: if we're going to talk about this, why don't I take you through a coaching session where he used concepts of embodiment to help me deal with issues and decisions I had to make. We had a 30-40 minute session using these concepts, and it became clear it was valuable for me. But it also became clear this probably isn't for everybody. You had me standing up, camera pointed at me, holding myself in unusual positions as you talked me through this idea of holding myself in place and listening to what my body was telling me. I can imagine that with less trust, or less privacy, this must be a polarizing concept.

[00:19:19] Embodied Coaching—Interpretive Dance and Power Poses

Dan Prager: I think we can have some fun trying to get the message across, but not everyone takes to it. If you want to make fun of it, you can diss it as interpretive dance as a form of coaching—which does have some validity! Maybe there's something to interpretive dance. My personal challenge here—and Andrew will help by putting the hard as well as the friendly questions—is to get some of that across today.

You may have noticed that Andrew and I have been making gestures while talking. Some of you might be familiar with Amy Cuddy's "power postures"—like before a job interview, go and do a confidence-boosting posture (probably not in front of the interviewer!). The fact is, we're embodying the whole time—when we gesture or change our stance, even if we're not conscious of it. This is like advanced hackery: from the outside in, if I take certain postures; from the inside out, certain thinking can help. For example, Amy Cuddy's "power pose," or even just smiling (or sticking a pencil in your mouth), can make you feel a bit happier, which is the reverse of "if you feel happy, you smile."

[00:21:42] Two-Way Feedback Loop and Embodiment in Coaching

Andrew Murphy: So it's the two-way feedback loop.

Dan Prager: Yeah, but like on the negative side, like the Ron Jeffries story—and Andrew, on World Mental Health Day, you did something courageous and vulnerable, sharing a story of getting migraine-like headaches while driving and listening to your body's signals, deciding you needed to change some things. That's one direction. Maybe when you're in a flow state—even with code—your body is relaxing and becoming optimal.

When we did the actual coaching session, in a more conventional way, I might ask questions like: "What do you really want?" Then with a couple of postural supports: lean back, stretch arms to get the feeling of space—maybe like you're looking out over the sea from a clifftop. Then I asked the same question again, but with Andrew giving himself a little bit of a cuddle, a fetal position—which can cue a more emotive connection. These are examples of engaging the mind and the body together.

[00:23:51] Reenacting and Processing Challenging Situations Physically

Dan Prager: Another approach, in a more extended coaching session, is not just to discuss a challenging situation, but actually enact some of the physical feelings that went on—like a presentation that didn't go well. There’s a cognitive layer (what happened, what are the lessons), or you can engage embodiment: act out or use postures that capture the physical feelings from the situation—physical tension, shrinking in, defensive gestures. This can help internalize the learnings and sometimes help you process the unpleasantness, too.

[00:26:41] Andrew's Perspective: Value and Usability of Embodied Coaching

Andrew Murphy: From the perspective of someone who experienced it for the first time, I think the biggest value is that sometimes we know we want something, but we don't know why. Sometimes we don't even know what we truly want. Trying to listen to the body and see what you feel drawn toward physically is a really great way of tapping into that subconscious desire. I can really see the usefulness.

[00:29:46] Interoception, Exteroception, and Leadership Presence

Dan Prager: There's a couple of terms for this: interoception—feeling inwards, and exteroception—feeling outwards. There's how am I feeling (e.g., headache, tension before presentation) and being aware of signals your body-mind are sending. Then there’s being aware of “the vibe” of the room as a leader—reading the room, holding space for others, which ties into facilitation. As a leader, you can’t afford to be unaware of these. You might miscalibrate—my issue is I don’t have a good poker face, so people can read exactly what I think. The opposite—unreadable—can also be problematic.

[00:32:05] Neurodiversity, Cognitive vs. Instinctive Social Processing

Andrew Murphy: As someone on the autistic spectrum, I had to learn to recognize facial expressions and emotions cognitively instead of instinctually. That background thread takes up processing power in my mind. In our coaching session, I found it very helpful to close my eyes and shut out stimuli, focusing just on my body. That’s not something I usually do, but when I did, I found I could understand myself better because all my processing could go inwards.

[00:33:59] Safety and Space: Meditation, Silence, and Self-Regulation

Dan Prager: There’s a lot of neurodiversity in our profession. You felt safe enough to close your eyes, not seeking approval from me, just searching inside. People who meditate (e.g., body scans, focusing on breath) may know this embodied mind-body connection. Related: in unconferences—by halfway through, I felt overstimulated and just needed quiet. Someone ran a session about the power of silence—five minutes sitting quietly together—amazing for resetting. If there’s enough safety, you can do these unconventional embodied practices. Just be mindful of the context—don’t feel pressured to do something “weird” in a setting where it’s not appropriate.

[00:36:44] Audience Q&A and Embodied Gestures

Andrew Murphy: There are the extreme embodiment things you use in coaching, but even day-to-day gesticulations matter. Looking at audience comments—James: stretching feels good after being hunched up; Maria: cognitive processing overload; Rachel: thanks for sharing about neurodivergence. One of the main reasons I got into this is because I was so bad at it, but I learned. You’re not born good at people skills or not—you can learn. Let’s circle back—Dan, you mentioned martial arts earlier. Can you connect those dots for us between martial arts and embodiment?

[00:38:46] Connecting Martial Arts and Embodiment in Leadership

Dan Prager: Anyone with a physical practice—sport, dance, yoga, singing, instruments—knows this. My main avocational practice is martial arts, which is very much a mind and body activity with ritual. Take judo—it’s people throwing each other around safely. This can be dangerous, so you train collaboratively and build up skills. There’s a really physical metaphor for resilience: being thrown and getting up again isn’t failure, it’s just part of engagement. You learn resilience in an embodied way, and it can be fun and help clear your head.

In teaching, I’d ask: have you brought these martial arts lessons into real life? Most say they’ve learned to fall and not injure themselves. But more importantly, in workplace situations, when challenged by a boss or client, the same ancestral fight/flight/freeze responses can get triggered. Physical practice teaches you to flow through what previously would have triggered a “freeze.” That’s key for leadership—responding with engagement and calm instead of getting defensive or running away. There’s value in systematically learning embodied skills, whether through martial arts or other practices.

[00:43:38] Translating Embodied Practice to Workplace Conflict

Andrew Murphy: I like translating that to workplace conflict. In training, I avoid “fight or flight” language since it sounds too physical, but instead use “forcing dialogue” versus “withdrawing dialogue.” If you’re fighting, you're forcing your viewpoint; if you’re fleeing, you’re withdrawing from conversation. It’s a way to make it less about physical combat and more about communication dynamics.

Dan Prager: Yeah, that’s great. I remember facilitating a session with a very forceful “alpha” manager. Instead of fighting or fleeing, I called a timeout and took him aside to de-escalate the tension. The embodiment helped—physically moving the interaction away from the group changed the dynamic, gave space to reset.

[00:46:35] Takeaways: Actionable Suggestions for Leaders and Teams

Andrew Murphy: I always want people to leave with actionable takeaways. Important caveat: Dan and I are not psychologists, psychiatrists, or counselors—everything we share is from our own life experiences. This is what’s worked for us—it may not work for you; please bear that in mind.

Let’s focus first on: this is Tech Leaders Livestream, where the audience are often the culture holders for their organizations. Dan, could you talk about how embodiment is important in reflecting company culture as a leader?

[00:48:06] Embodiment as a Leadership Multiplier; Tools and Postures

Dan Prager: I see two key aspects: working with others and working with yourself.

For others: as a leader, it’s about being a multiplier for your team’s effectiveness, not the self-aggrandizing expert. The transition from IC to team lead is about moving from solving problems yourself to enabling others. One embodiment trick: when listening, instead of jumping to solutions, hold space—lean forward, open posture, hands in a “bridge” gesture. Physically signal that you’re there to help them do their best thinking. In group settings, have an open posture, scan the room, notice who hasn’t spoken. Use your body language to include others. When actively listening, practice not interrupting and re-engage curiosity with “I wonder what they’ll say next?” Your physical presence matters in holding space.

[00:52:13] Leading by Example: Actions Over Words in Stress Management

Andrew Murphy: The stuff I teach is usually intra-personal, but with implications for your team. A big piece is dealing with overwhelm and stress. There’s three angles: dealing with it yourself, recognizing it in your team, and being aware that your actions give implicit permission to your team.

Example: I caught Covid during an intense period at work. I realized that by trying to power through, I was telling my team (by example) that they had to do the same if they were sick or struggling. People listen to your actions more than your words. So, self-care isn’t just about you—it signals to your team what’s OK to do and sets cultural norms.

[00:55:08] Should Embodied Leadership Be a Standard Module for Engineering Leaders?

Dan Prager: Should all engineering leaders be given embodied leadership training? Speaking personally, I’d love to do that for many companies, but it’s not for everyone. I think about half the people would be embodiment-curious, and for them, the practice would be hugely beneficial. There’s overlap with mindfulness, which is currently seeing more adoption. Uzazu is a system that’s modular and not martial-arts based, if people are curious. It’s about the flow from “sponge” (closed) to “ah” (open). There are resources online if you want to look it up.

[00:59:01] Embodied Leadership in Product vs. Consulting Teams

Andrew Murphy: We’re almost out of time, but Rachel asked: Any thoughts on how embodied leadership might work in in-house teams vs. consulting teams, which are often temporary and project-based?

Dan Prager: In our consulting company, I’ve coached leaders in embodied practices. With long-lived teams, you can develop a shared language, boost psychological safety, and enable better collaboration. With consulting teams or temporary teams, it’s about how much time and shared understanding you have. For consultants, skills like reading body language and exerting presence are valuable, even if you don’t have the deeper team connections.

Even small gestures—like gesticulating a “mesh” when overwhelmed—can be clues. I coached someone who did that and called it out, so she could try grounding or slowing down while facilitating. When you can do that, it’s like empathy on steroids—people feel seen and supported.

[01:03:58] Communities of Practice: Building Psychological Safety in Consulting

Andrew Murphy: One thing I’m really fanatical about in consultancies is building communities of practice—not just in tech skills but around leadership and people skills. Even if project teams aren’t long-lived, the roles are—and communities of practice around leadership, client management, or project delivery offer long-term safety and allow these kind of conversations and embodied practices to flourish.

[01:04:27] Wrapping Up and Next Livestream

Dan Prager: That’s a lovely sentiment to end on. As we think about working in more networked, consulting-style structures, communities of practice form wonderful cross-connections, especially if you’re seeking transformation.

Andrew Murphy: All right, we are at the end of the hour (slightly over). Thank you for staying an extra minute. Thank you so much, Dan, for this discussion. Always great to have you here. This is our last livestream for the year—we’re taking a break over Christmas and will be back at the end of January with Charity Majors on communication when trust is low in a team. Thanks for joining Tech Leaders Livestream, thank you Dan, and I’ll see you next year. Goodbye.

Dan Prager: Thank you.